A Gentle Correspondence with
Tony Greenstein
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| John Mann Portrayed by the Richard Desmond's Express as the Innocent Victim |
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| Phil Woolas - ex-New Labour Immigration Minister Thrown Out by Electoral Court - Campaign based on making Whites 'Angry' - Best Friend of John Mann MP |
One thing John Mann MP cannot be accused of is being too clever by half, the term used by the Marquess of Salisbury about the then Tory Shadow Chancellor Iain McLeod (originally used to describe Disraeli).
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| Portrait of a New Labour Opportunist |
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| Woolas's Leaflet - Racist to the Core - John Mann Stood by Him Regardless |
In my post ‘John Mann MP Complains of being called a Zionist Scumbag’ subtitled ‘Which did he object to? Zionist or Scumbag?’ I focussed attention on one John Mann MP, who's been waging a one man vendetta against Jeremy Corbyn. Not being a subtle man, he took to suggesting Jeremy was soft on child abuse.
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| The Hard Done-by Mann |
Styled ‘rent-a-gob’ by Matthew Norman of the Independent, because of his habit of commenting on anything and everything, John Mann is not known for his cerebral brilliance. In other words he’s thick. After protesting loudly at the fact that I made the, fairly obvious point to someone who’s not Jewish, that he might not really understand what anti-Semitism is, he protested at how dare I challenge his right to self-identity.
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| Interview with Jewish Chronicle when Mann Declares Himself non-Jewish |
Well for one thing, I am not a relativist. I don’t believe there is any inalienable right to self-identify and not have that identity challenged. If I say I am a visitor from Jupiter I would expect people to challenge this rather than have anti-Jupiterism as the next form of anti-racist multi-cultural smooching. So I did a google search and guess what? Mann himself identifies as non-Jewish! In his interview in the Jewish Chronicle with Simon Round of 12 February 2009 which begins 'Labour MP John Mann is not Jewish'. It continues 'There may be nothing Jewish in his background but... Indeed, he is adamant that the fight against antisemitism should be led by non-Jews.' http://www.thejc.com/
John Mann though is a sensitive creature and of late he has been complaining that he is being targeted for abuse. Labour to investigate after MP called ‘Zionist scumbag’ for opposing Jeremy Corbyn
John Mann is Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitismand came to my attention when the debate took place over the European Monitoring Committees Definition of Anti-Semitism, which was a Zionist definition which conflated criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. But John Mann understands nothing about anti-Semitism though he poses as an expert. The most skilful putdown of him and his collaborator, the corrupt ex-MP Dennis McShane was by the Chairman of the Employment Tribunal in Fraser v UCU (where the lecturers union were accused of 'anti-semitism' for boycotting Israeli universities):
"We did not derive assistance from the two Members of Parliament who appeared before us. Both gave glib evidence, appearing supremely confident of the rightness of their positions. For Dr MacShane, it seemed that all answers lay in the MacPherson Report (the effect of which he appeared to misunderstand). Mr Mann could manage without even that assistance. He told us that the leaders of the Respondents were at fault for the way in which they conducted debates but did not enlighten us as to what they were doing wrong or what they should be doing differently. He did not claim ever to have witnessed any Congress or other UCU meeting. And when it came to anti-Semitism in the context of debate about the Middle East, he announced, “It’s clear to me where the line is …” but unfortunately eschewed the opportunity to locate it for us. Both parliamentarians clearly enjoyed making speeches. Neither seemed at ease with the idea of being required to answer a question not to his liking."
Well John Mann and myself have conducted a vigorous email debate today and I thought I should share the contents with others, so it is copied below. Incidentally one nugget of information I found was that John Mann was a political ally of Phil Woolas, the disgraced former New Labour MP and Minister whose election was overturned by an electoral court in 2010. Woolas had been a particularly nasty and racist immigration minister and in the fight against the Liberal Democrats in his Oldham East & Saddleworth constituency, one e-mail in the debate within his election team stated, that ‘"If we don't get the white folk angry he [Woolas]'s gone." This was the basis of the election campaign that Woolas fought. This played to anti-Islamic racism in a constituency which had already seen race riots.
John Mann, dedicated opponent of racism though he is, had no hesitation in supporting Phil Woolas when he was suspendedby Harriet Harman. ‘Among those to have spoken out in support of Woolas was John Mann, a close friend of his.’
Such is the nature of the double standards that operate within the Zionist supporting community of Labour MPs these days. Racists to a Mann.
Correspondence
On 23 Aug 2015, at 15:39, Tony Greenstein <tonygreenstein111@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Mann,
I am puzzled. What is it you are objecting to? Being called a scumbag, when that would seem a more than appropriate description of someone who alleges that Jeremy Corbyn is soft on child abuse?
Or is it being called a Zionist when it is clear that you use the term 'anti-Semitism' as a form of abuse of those, Jewish included, who criticise Israel and Zionism. To use a Yiddish word, it is something of a chutzpah for a non-Jew to accuse Jews of 'anti-Semitism', but well let that pass.
Zionism incidentally, since you don't seem to understand the word, is a political movement that sought to establish a Jewish state by accepting the anti-Semitic notion that Jews don't belong in the countries they were born in.
Of course your Parliamentary Committee on anti-Semitism is really a means of attacking critics of Zionism and Israel, since it has nothing to say about the far-Right, which is where anti-Semitism comes from. But as someone who is not even Jewish, you wouldn't understand what anti-Semitism is about in any case.
So what's your objection? To 'Zionist' and 'scumbag' being combined? I am puzzled.
Regards
Tony Greenstein
UK Parliament Disclaimer: This e-mail is confidential to the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any unauthorised use, disclosure, or copying is not permitted. This e-mail has been checked for viruses, but no liability is accepted for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail.
On 23 August 2015 at 16:10, MANN, John <john.mann.mp@parliament.uk> wrote:
I will publish a full response including your email.
John Mann
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Aug 2015, at 18:06, Tony Greenstein <tonygreenstein111@gmail.com> wrote:
It's already been posted on social media
Tony Greenstein
On 23 August 2015 at 18:24, MANN, John <john.mann.mp@parliament.uk> wrote:
There is a surprise. Your lies no bounds and are calculatedly designed to deceive.
You ought to re-read Steve Cohen.
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Aug 2015, at 18:44, Tony Greenstein <tonygreenstein111@gmail.com> wrote:
You are a fool aren't you? Is that why you were appointed to the Chair of Parliament's anti-Semitism Committee? You don't have a clue as to what racism or anti-Semitism is. When was the last time you spoke up about asylum seekers? It's people like Jeremy Corbyn who have spoken up against the treatment of refugees. You are a New Labour scumbag, remember?
If this had been the 1900's you would have been in the forefront of opposing Jewish refugees from Czarist Russia entry into this country and in 1938 you would have stood alongside the Daily 'Hate' Mail in opposing the entry of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany.
But that isn't the type of anti-Semitism you oppose. Your anti-Semitism is solely concerned with opposition to Israel and Zionist racism. You stand full square with Netanyahu and his concern that 'droves' of Arabs are voting or Deputy Defence Minister Eli Dahan who believes that Arabs are 'beasts that aren't human'.
For the record I knew Steve Cohen. I stood alongside him and I spoke at his commemoration meeting after he had died (and I reprimanded the Engage group's attempt to exploit Steve's memory). Steve and myself were the targets of fascist violence whereas you and New Labour condemned fascists and anti-fascists as the same. Steve was a supporter, as I am, of No Borders. People like you want to make Europe into a Fortress against immigrants.
Towards the end of his life Steve moved firmly into the anti-Zionist camp holding that a Jewish state was inevitably a racist state. According to your Committee he was also, no doubt, an anti-Semite.
Tony Greenstein
On 23 August 2015 at 19:17, MANN, John <john.mann.mp@parliament.uk> wrote:
Time you read his book then and thought about the split in Socialist organiser. You cannot move beyond your Trotskyist mentality. It dominates your mind
You know full well that I receive the same abuse from right as from ultra left.
Who got action taken against Bonehill! Who did national action target this spring?
Oh dear. Who chaired the FA task force on islamophobia?
Don't give me this political analysis crap.
If you bothered to look you would see my views on every issue- I don't hide on obscure websites.
And as for the idea that racism must only be opposed by its victims. Interesting position.
How dare you define my identity? Who do you think you are defining any bodies identity?
That's your big problem - you do.
You have no idea who I am or where I am from. You know nothing of me, my family or my background. I will identify myself not you .
As for you, I only know that your ultra left friends used to call you tony greenslime, something that indicated to me a in built racism.
Strangely it was only self identified Jews or presumed Jews who received such casual racism
As for your pathetic slur only likely approach to Jewish refugees, I recommend you buy my book on anti Semitism.
As for steve Cohen, perhaps we should ask jane Ashworth . You are not and never will be a steve Cohen and if you were to use his book as a campaign tool....
Read it.
Your ranting is too comical to be obscene. Have s walk on the beach, it will help
Sent from my iPhone
John Mann
you tell me to read his book. Steve Cohen wrote at least 3 books. I assume you mean his book on 'left anti-Semitism'. I have a copy of it and I disagree with much of its political analysis. A strange concept to you no doubt.
What split in Socialist Organiser? Between the right and further right, the closet supporters of imperialism and the invasion of Iraq and the open supporters of imperialism and the invasion of Iraq? I am not interested in a tiny ex-Trotskyite sect like SO/AWL and Jane Ashworth who has long abandoned any pretensions of being on the Left.
Although I have not examined your positions on other political matters I assume you too were a supporter of Bush & Blair's genocidal invasion of Iraq and will therefore take responsibility for all that happened, such as the growth of Isis and Sunni Fundamentalism. No doubt you still support the alliance with Saudi Arabia as well as Israel (which also supports Al Qaeda group al-Nusra as well as Isis).
Bonehill is an isolated nonentity on the far-right. He represents nothing, absolutely nothing. Likewise National Action. The main fascist groups in this country - BNP and EDL - are both ardent supporters of Israel and no doubt agree with everything you say about 'anti-Semitism'.
Yes it's quite cuddly to be opposed to 'Islamaphobia' whilst in practice supporting the main agents of anti-Muslim racism. Did you oppose Labour's 'anti-terrorist' legislation that criminalised thought? A step taken even further now with Theresa May's attack on 'extremism' which is introducing the method of the Police state into schools and universities, with vetting of speakers? You have opposed none of this. New Labour prepared the ground for all that is following in terms of civil liberties and naked racism. You helped build the Jihadist groups with your support for attacking Iraq and Afghanistan. You then have the audacity to trumpet some minor chairing of an FA committee. Pathetic.
Jeremy Corbyn, the man you demonise, opposed the Iraqi invasion root and branch alongside that giant of the socialist left, Tony Benn. You were always part of the New Labour cast that used the defamatory scarecrow of 'anti-Semitism' to attack opponents of Israel's murderous and horrendous racism. A racism which ends up in the burning alive of an 18 month old child.
I don't doubt that the man termed 'rent a gob' by Matthew Norman has his views spread everywhere. Unfortunately they lack any substance. Of course I don't suggest racism should be opposed only by its victims but when people who are not victims of racism take it upon themselves to try and define that racism, anti-Semitism in this case, in order to use it as a stick to beat those who are the victims of a far greater evil, then I certainly step in.
You can self-identify yourself as much as you like but you are not Jewish. That is a fact. Perhaps in your sojourn around the media you have forgotten your interview in the Jewish Chronicle with Simon Round of 12 February 2009 which begins 'Labour MP John Mann is not Jewish'. It continues 'There may be nothing Jewish in his background but... Indeed, he is adamant that the fight against antisemitism should be led by non-Jews.'
The fact that someone makes a play on my name (in fact it has been done by people from right to left) doesn't mean that they are anti-Semitic. Merely puerile like your good self.
I doubt if I would learn anything from your book. My own book on fighting fascism in Brighton and the South Coast is of far greater interest. These days books on anti-Semitism are two a penny. What I judge is your record. You were, as I have already pointed out, heavily criticised by the Employment Judge in Fraser v UCU. Because when it came to it allegations by you of anti-Semitism could not be backed up, because there was no anti-Semitism. And therein lies the rub. Accusations of anti-Semitism that are false and made for naked political ends by the Right, to defeat a Boycott of Israel for its Apartheid policies, are extremely damaging. Like the boy who cried wolf you actually help legitimise anti-Semitism (of the real kind).
I suggest you try informing yourself of the situation of Palestinians and why we support boycott. The fact that the Dawabshe family in Duma, West Bank, two of whom have died because of the firebombing, will not receive anti-terrorist compensation because they are not Jewish and on the West Bank there are 2 sets of laws i.e. Apartheid.
Acquaint yourself with the fact that Arabs can't buy or lease 93% of land in Israel because they are not Jewish nationals or that Arab stone throwers can be gaoled now for 20 years whereas settlers who throw stones receive no penalty. Or that the Chief Rabbi of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu receives no penalty for issuing an edict against letting out flats or apartments to non-Jews and Arabs (oh he was criticised by Netanyahu when the publicity spotlight was on him but he is still paid a state salary as befits a rabbi in Israel). Or why the authors of Torat HaMelech by 2 rabbis inc. Yitzhak Shapira are not prosecuted for writing a book detailing when it is permissible to kill non-Jews yea even infants. And then tell me that Boycotting such a state is 'anti-Semitic'.
I make no claim to be Steve Cohen. I am my own person. Steve and I had a comradely relationship and we became closer over the years. You can read my obituary on my blog. We were both of the Left. You are not which is why Steve would have chosen me above you any day of the week. Steve would have had contempt for you and the tragedy is that you don't understand why he wouldn't support a New Labour MP.
There are things that Steve wrote to me, which would support the above, that I would even divulge to you in open correspondence because I have too much respect for him. And it is because I respected Steve, and vicer versa, that we could disagree.
Tony Greenstein
I forgot to mention your support of the racist New Labour ex-Immigration Minister Phil Woolas. Thrown out by an Electoral Court for trying too hard to make 'Whites Angry'. You stood by him through thick and thin. No doubt part of your anti-Islamaphobia campaign?
Tony Greenstein
On 24 August 2015 at 06:09, MANN, John <john.mann.mp@parliament.uk> wrote:
I do not define myself as a Zionist under any definition of the word , you cannot evidence me being a Zionist on your definition.
Yet you use the term pejoratively against me. Interesting. ( and many others do the same)
Your only basis for doing so is that I chair a committee on anti Semitism
Better that you followed cohens bravery in challenging anti Semitism on the left
Sent from my iPhone
You may not define yourself as a Zionist, however that does not mean you aren't a Zionist. Having been an active anti-fascist for over 30 years, unlike your good self, nearly all members of the National Front and BNP that I came across denied they were fascists. They purported to be 'patriots'. However fascists they were and are - and a Zionist you are.
A Zionist is someone who supports the Zionist movement and its creation, the State of Israel. There is no doubt that you fit into that category and the best example of that is the Report of the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism which you chaired in 2014.
It is a classic example of the 'new anti-Semitism'. It took evidence almost wholly from Zionists. I recognise just one person who might possibly come under the rubric of a non-Zionist. The eminent expert in how the term anti-Semitism is misused, notably in the European Monitoring Committee's Working Definition of anti-Semitism, which you approve of, Dr Brian Klug is a notable omission. So too is Tony Lerman, the former Director and founder of the Institute of Jewish Policy Research, who was forced out of his job for not toeing the Zionist line on matters such as 'anti-Semitism'.
The Report complains about the fact that people associate British Jews with what Israel does. In itself a fair comment, but not once does it make even the tiniest criticism of the Board of Deputies of British Jews who strenuously seek to align British Jewry with Israel's crimes, proudly proclaiming that British Jews support Israel. It is no wonder that some misguided people do therefore equate Jews with Israeli war crimes when Jewish representative bodies, albeit not as representative as they believe themselves to be, do their best to make such connections.
Indeed you note, with approval, (para 169) that in the House of Lords, a cross bench peer’s comments that “much antisemitism is a reaction to the appalling Israeli treatment of its Arab neighbours” were roundly condemned by others attending the debate. Why? It's obvious from the spike in anti-Semitic incidents that you draw attention to that the two are related.
The Report, quite disingenuously, seeks to associate the Boycott of Israel with anti-Semitism. As someone who has proudly taken part in a number of Boycott activities, including those which closed the Ahava shop in London and Sodastream in Brighton, as well as the disruption of Israel's Philharmonic Orchestra at the Proms, I cannot see there is a trace of anti-Semitism therein. Boycott actions are directed at Israeli commercial concerns not at Jewish ones, despite your conflation of the two.
The fact that you turned up at the Fraser v UCU Employment Tribunal, where you were roundly criticised by the Tribunal, to give evidence that UCU had been anti-Semitic for boycotting Israeli universities, institutions that provide support and backup to the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, demonstrates in itself where your sympathies lie.
Your criticism of the Tricycle Theatre for having initially refused to sponsor a Jewish Film Festival because it received Israeli Embassy funding, even though it said it would provide the equivalent subsidy itself, apparently 'caused shock and tremendous concern' to those who gave evidence to you. It is a pity that they weren't shocked and concerned by the death of over 2,000 people in Gaza as a result of the actions of the Israeli government, which the Embassy represents.
Although it may be due to ignorance rather than malevolence, you report that the Home Secretary spoke out against antisemitism at a Conservative Friends of Israel even. Perhaps, given your remit is anti-Semitism, you could have focussed on the fact that CFI has previously invited noted anti-Semites such as Michal Kaminski, a Polish MEP who has campaigned against a Polish apology for Jedwabne or Robert Zile MEP of Latvia, who marches annually with the Waffen SS veterans. But then that would be embarrassing since Israel has strong links with all manner of pro-Zionist anti-Semites.
You even attack John Prescott MP for writing in his Sunday Mirror column that Gaza was comparable to a concentration camp and that “What happened to the Jewish people at the hands of the Nazis is appalling. But you would think those atrocities would give Israelis a unique sense of perspective and empathy with the victims of a ghetto” para. 167
The Report seemed disturbed by the fact that 'flowers with a card naming three children killed in Gaza were left outside a prominent Jewish centre in North West London, deliberately in time for Jewish schoolchildren being collected from a summer scheme to see them.'para. 128
What has that to do with anti-Semitism?
Attacking its critics as 'anti-Semites' is a standard Zionist trope. Telling Jewish anti-Zionists that it is a pity they didn't die in the holocaust and other abuse, is another form of Zionist anti-Semitism. One lovely example, among many, that I have received at my blog was:
'It's a shame that either Hitler or the Angel of Death, missed your family's house. Or Neturei Karta's.Don't even call yourself a Jew,traitor.' http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/
'It's a shame that either Hitler or the Angel of Death, missed your family's house. Or Neturei Karta's.Don't even call yourself a Jew,traitor.' http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/
A large percentage of anti-Semitic comments comes from Zionists but that would be inconvenient to you or your fellow travellers.
So when you ask for evidence that you are a Zionist, you might now understand why your Report more than fits the bill.
I note that you were one of the Labour MPs not to support the creation of a Palestinian state and I am unaware, though no doubt you will provide some evidence to the contrary if you have any, that you have ever raised your voice in opposition to what Israel does in stealing the land of the Palestinians and killing thousands of them.
Your concern about 'anti-Semitism' is entirely devoted to the cause of Zionism which is why the firm of Mishcon De Reya provided you with pro bono support, as they did in the Fraser v UCU case.
Tony Greenstein